Deputy Chief Brian Harding, currently the acting Akron police chief and the sole candidate for the permanent position, joined Akron Mayor Shammas Malik in the second of two town hall forums moderated by University of Akron law professor Brant Lee.
Though not much more about Harding was revealed than at the first, contentious town hall at Buchtel Community Learning Center on Saturday, the forum held Tuesday evening at East Community Learning Center featured a number of memorable exchanges between Harding, Malik and audience members, who were invited to ask questions after some opening statements.
Signal Akron highlighted four of the key moments here. The entire town hall is available to watch on the City of Akron’s Facebook page — Ideastream’s Anna Huntsman and WKYC also reported on the event.
Moment: Lee, who moderated the event, asked Harding about “tension and mistrust” between the Black community in Akron and the Akron Police Department. 19:45 into the video.
Lee: As you know, there’s been tension and mistrust, particularly between Akron’s Black community and the police department, and that mistrust has deep historical roots. What evidence can you offer that you truly understand the perspective of others so that people can trust that you will bring change?
Harding: Thank you for that. I guess I would start by saying I’m well aware that I don’t know everything. I’m always looking to learn more. I’m well aware there’s a distrust between the communities, specifically the Black community, and policing locally. Not just with Akron police, but even more so distrust of white police officers. I’m aware of that.
I can tell you two things, personally, what I’ve done, or what I can continue to do, how I try to handle that, and then organizationally, how I think some of that stuff is. Me, personally, it’s being aware that I don’t know everything. I think it’s important that I surround myself with other people that can kind of give me a different point of view, perspective, and context. Whether that’s community leaders that I’ve had the opportunity to meet with, some of the pastors in the Black community, specifically, that I meet with to kind of learn more about that.
I know Chief [Steve] Mylett, in the past, started an African American advisory council; I’ve had an opportunity to meet with them and learn more there. But I really think we need to continually be open to develop relationships and realize we don’t know everything and we need to look at different points of view.
Last year the chamber, the Greater Akron Chamber, sponsored a training class. It was a couple day class specifically for white males in leadership positions to learn more about diversity and to truly try to understand maybe where we came from and some of the privilege we maybe have, things we’re not aware of.
That was a really impactful couple days for me to truly maybe learn how I looked at things maybe different from some others. It helped me understand that this is a quest you need to continually be on to try to learn more, and that’s really been an impact for me and an area I know I need to continue to grow in.
Organizationally, I think the city has DEI – Esther [Thomas], I believe, is here – and continuing to work in that regard, partnering with that. But I also think, just developing relationships. As we get to know each other and develop relationships as individuals, we begin to break down some of those barriers that maybe can appear divisive initially up front.
Those are just a few areas I can think of right from the beginning for me personally, and also organizationally. And as we talk about even some of the stuff I mentioned at the podium around going out and connecting with the community, those are excellent opportunities for all our officers to learn the differences we each have.
Moment: An attendee asked Harding if he would fire the eight officers involved in the killing of Jayland Walker in 2022 and about Officer Ryan Westlake, who shot 15-year-old Tavion Koonce-Williams earlier this month. 38:15 into the video.
Attendee: Forgetting everything under the union contract, if Jayland was murdered while you were chief, would you fire the officers that shot 90 bullets at him – yes or no?
Harding: I think that’s already been solved and I shouldn’t even be weighing in on that.
Attendee: The investigation is already done, correct? You, though – I’m asking you, as a man of integrity who doesn’t believe in racism, would you fire them, yes or no?
Harding: I think I have to follow the law and the contract with what occurred there.
Attendee: Following up with that, you’re a man of integrity again, would you release the names of the eight officers that killed Jayland Walker?
Harding: I think we’ve shown with the last one, when we have an officer-involved shooting and there’s no threats associated with what’s going on, we released the officer’s name. We just did that with the most recent shooting, and that’s our plan moving forward.
Attendee: Speaking of the most recent shooting, in response to Officer Westlake, are you going to take actions to make sure he doesn’t do something like that again?
Harding: I think we’re absolutely going to handle that case like we are each one. That’s being investigated by BCI for the criminal, and there will be an internal investigation as well.
Attendee: We already know how the internal investigations go, so I’m just curious what you have to say.
Malik: We’ve shared that we hope to release more information in the next few weeks regarding that specific incident, and so I don’t want to get ahead of that. But part of this is that with Issue 10 (Editor’s note: Issue 10 established Akron’s Citizens’ Police Oversight Board), on the administrative side, we created a new part of that process so we do want to make sure that process has a chance to be put into practice.
At the same time, I did say we as an administration, we released more of the body camera than was required under law. We’ve tried to be as transparent as possible, and we are sitting here planning to release more information in the coming weeks about that specific incident.
Moment: Local attorney Imokhai Okolo, critical of Malik’s plan to consider only internal candidates, asked Harding if he would be willing to withdraw his name from the current hiring process and re-apply after a charter amendment is in place that would allow Malik to consider external candidates. Okolo also challenged Malik about Deputy Chief Jesse Leeser, who was also a finalist for the police chief job before Malik removed him from consideration. 45:50 into the video.
Okolo: It’s clear there’s not a great relationship between the Black community here in Akron and the Akron Police Department – you’ve spoken to that as well at the last forum. You’ve also spoken of your commitment to try to bridge that gap, to try to increase that relationship.
I think over the past couple of weeks, last couple of months, there’s been consensus amongst the Black community about our disfavor in this process, specifically our disfavor in Mayor Malik’s decisions in this. Folks are dissatisfied with not having a diverse candidate pool as a result of the mayor’s decision, which leaves us with one other person and you.
We’ve now realized that one other person has since dropped out – well, not dropped out, but wasn’t chosen by Mayor Malik because he didn’t want to do a community forum, which leads to another question: Do you think he should be the second in command if he won’t do a community forum? But that’s neither here nor there, you can answer that one later.
But that strained relationship was there and you have a commitment to try to increase and build that relationship. And folks want a more diverse candidate pool, but you also believe that you are the best candidate to run this department, right?
Harding: I do.
Okolo: So, being that best candidate, and knowing you want to bridge the gap and build relationships in the community, would you be willing to withdraw your name now, knowing the mayor is going to change the charter, do a charter amendment to allow a diverse candidate pool, and then resubmit your name at that time, knowing that you’re the best candidate and will survive that process.
I’m not asking you, Shammas, I’m asking Chief Harding if you’d be willing to withdraw your name so that the community can have a diverse candidate pool, and you can continue being acting chief, and when the time comes for us to pick a permanent chief, you throw your name in the ring and we let bygones be bygones?
Harding to Malik: You want to go or you want me to go first?
Malik: So–
Okolo: I don’t want to hear from you, Shammas, the question is not directed toward you. And I appreciate your willingness to answer questions, but the question is for Chief Harding right now. It’s not for you, it’s for Chief Harding. If you’d like to answer the question about his second in command, I’d love to hear that because I’m not sure how you can be second in command and not want to do a forum.
Malik to Harding: You can answer then I’ll answer.
Harding: I haven’t really given that any thought, but I guess I’m going to have to analyze that.
Okolo: Well, we’ve got some time, speak on it.
Malik: So–
Okolo: No, no, no, no, let him finish. Let him finish.
Harding: No, I mean, I might be open to that.
Malik: So, I’ve been very clear through this process, we’ve had this conversation on stage two weeks ago.
Okolo: That wasn’t a conversation, but all right.
Malik: Well, you shared your thoughts, then I shared my thoughts, then you shared your thoughts. At the end of the day, I owe you my best judgment. I was elected as mayor of the City of Akron to give you my best judgment. You can disagree with my judgment. I have an obligation to listen, to dialogue, to engage, which I’ve done every single day I’ve been in office. But I owe you my best judgment.
So, we can disagree about what we think the law is, but I have done an exhaustive review of what the law is and I do not believe that I have the authority, right now, to hire an external candidate. At that point, we had a decision to make. I had a decision to make: to pause the process and hire a permanent chief next year after we can move forward with a charter amendment, which we absolutely need to do, or to go through a process with internal candidates.
Now, I have been clear that I feel like doing that, moving forward with an acting chief for a year, is not in the best interests of the community. We can disagree on that, but that is my decision to make. And people can be dissatisfied with that decision, but I owe you my best judgment. The day I stop giving you my best judgment is the day I should not do this job.
Okolo: So the second–
Malik: Please let me finish, Imokhai. I’ll address your other question. Now, why do I feel that way? I put it some in here [Malik points toward a folder on the floor next to him]. But having someone who can be a champion within a department to implement my vision requires somebody who’s going to be there longer than a month in their role.
Having somebody who can go to the negotiation table, go toe-to-toe with the union – because I’m not afraid of the union, but it requires having someone who is able to put forward a permanent vision and say, ‘I’m going to be here dealing with you this month, next month, next year’ is important. Having someone who can say, ‘This is a policy change I’m making’ – because the chief makes policy changes, not me.
The chief who can say, ‘This is the policy change we are moving forward with as a department.’ Having a chief who can say, because he believes it, ‘Community policing has to be how the department runs’ not just for 10 officers but for 480 officers, is important. That’s my best judgment. We can disagree on that, but that’s my best judgment, and that is my decision to make.
The second piece, about the deputy chief – now am I frustrated with how it transpired? Absolutely I am. We will address that going forward. But we have someone who applied for the job and I felt, after the interviews, that I was only willing to hire one of those people, to bring both of those people before you would have been a farce. I’m bringing forward to you the one of the two candidates that I feel can help lead the Akron Police Department and implement that vision.
Okolo: So do you think he’s a good deputy chief? If he’s not good enough to be the chief, do you think he’s good enough to be the chief’s number two?
Malik: We’re not here discussing and litigating the deputy chief.
Okolo: But I’m asking the question.
Malik: That’s fine, we can discuss the question, but I feel that we are here in the interview process for the police chief. I have addressed his relationship to the police chief, I’m not going to sit here litigating somebody who’s not here on the stage and whether they’re able to do that role.
Okolo: If you don’t want to answer the question, don’t answer the question.
Harding: I guess all I can say is I can ask for you to judge me on the decisions I’ve made as the interim [chief], the decisions I continue to make in this role moving forward. I’ll look forward to that, and I need to be judged on what I do. So I appreciate it.
Moment: Judi Hill, the president of the Akron chapter of the NAACP, asked Harding about what he would do differently from retired Chief Mylett and when people will begin to feel his “vision.” (Editor’s note: Some of Hill’s audio was obscured by noises from the crowd – what appears below is partially paraphrased to capture the main points of her statement.) 52:55 into the video.
Hill: Hello, I’m Judi Hill. I guess my main question, and I’m going back to why we are here, which is: I’m still missing from you, what can we expect differently from you? I heard you say something about what the former police chief did, which was utilizing the best interests of some ministerial groups or individuals, and that didn’t go so very well, no offense.
Because the community is made up of more than the ministerial groups, that’s No. 1. And I appreciate what you said about community engagement and making it purposeful and engaging. But I think when you look at champions for this community, I don’t know where that gentleman went – we didn’t talk before – but the things that he said are really critical. You’re missing the key people that are here to represent, and it’s not just ministers, but it’s the people … We need a champion in the community, too.
I want to hear from you, what are you going to do differently? What are you going to do differently?
Harding: I think I covered some of it, but thank you for the question. I think we talked about being purposeful about engagement and connecting – that matters. Like I said, It cannot just be our community engagement team or a handful of officers whose role it is to engage. It needs to be the culture of the agency.
‘Cause I said ‘cause we go out in the ward meetings and we talk to people and we spend more time learning what the community wants, then we bring that back, and fostering a relationship to move that forward where everybody feels valued and important and they have a chance to learn what’s going on.
That’s to me how you really start to get to change that you need to have happen so it’s purposeful, engaging.
For me, I believe in collaboration. I truly believe that if you have the opportunity to get multiple points of view, you should take it.
That’s what I think is really important for me.
Hill: Great, it starts with you.
Harding: It does.
Hill: And all those officers underneath your, underneath your, your auspice. Right now, they are looking to you for guidance, for direction.
The other thing to talk about [is] training right this second. The training right now that they were just given orders to do, none of it had anything to do with community policing, none of it had to do with community engagement, none of it had to do with, how do we interact better with the same folks we’re talking about now.
And so, I’m like, wait a minute, then where are we going to get it if the mandatory training that they have to have doesn’t address it and the leadership tells us one thing but we don’t see it. And so that’s where I’m looking for your guidance to help us see something different.
Harding: Sure, I appreciate that. So to answer part of that, you’re right, our officers this year have to have three days of in-service training. There’s a few blocks, a little bit of that, but not as much as we need. I think we need to absolutely get back to the day where we have full week-long training programs where we pull, could pull the officers out to do that.
Community engagement, de-escalation need to be part of that all the time. It doesn’t need to be training that we have for a week at a time. Because those are skills you get, you can learn them and not be able to use them. It’s purposeful, when we talk about training, it’s training and culture and engaging all the time.That needs to be the change that happens. I think it’s starting – like the mayor said, it’s not quick. It’s slow, it’s purposeful.
I think the park and walks and talks are really important. Saying that we’re there, and not forgetting about it and talking about it at every staff meeting we have, talking about it in captain’s meeting as we talk about promotions in interviews, asking the people coming through, what is your plan to help us be better and engaging, and how are you going to champion that.
And making – that’s one thing as we go and we continue to move forward and we talk about what we’re going to do different when we talk about promotions. I’ll be letting everyone know that you’re not going to be judged on what you’ve done and the job you do walking every day. But you’re gonna be judged on your engagement, you’re gonna be judged on your plan for further engagement. How you support that with yourself and with the people you work with every day. And I think those are the things that are starting to happen.
It’s starting to happen, again,115 days we’re not going to get there overnight, but you have my commitment that we need to continue to work on that.
Hill: Let me tell you, working under great leaders, and I can name a few but I’m not going to. One of the things when they took their role whether it was interim or not, we knew from the beginning, from day one, ‘Here’s the vision.’
And you either catch it or you go. Right? And so when you know the vision, you march towards the goal, right? And so I’m just waiting for everybody to feel the vision. ‘Cause we know where you’re going. But we need to know the vision.
