The following is an edited transcript of a Feb. 16 panel discussion with officers from NOBLE, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, at the Trailhead At Cascade Lofts.
“Bridging the Gap: A Conversation on Policing from a Black Perspective,” was designed to address mistrust and communal trauma by fostering understanding, awareness and education.
“We already know what the problems are, and it doesn’t make sense to have all of these law enforcement professionals come down here and we talk about the problems,” said Michael Murphy Sr., the Akron Police Department’s chaplain. Murphy is also a member of NOBLE and serves as the senior pastor of Prevail Church in Akron’s Highland Square neighborhood.
“So let us get to what our best practices are, what has worked in other communities, what has moved the needle in some of the places they’re from so that we can glean from this and find action steps.”
A table-based discussion with invited participants, including law enforcement officers, community leaders, youth and other community stakeholders, led to the questions that formed the basis for the panel’s public conversation.
Signal Akron’s Gary Estwick moderated the panel discussion.
The panelists
Retired Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
My name is Cliff Pinkney, I was born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio. I grew up and graduated from Cleveland Heights High School, and I went to the Ohio State University.
After Ohio State, I went and served in the United States Army. I was in the infantry there, and when I left there, I came back home to Cuyahoga County and joined the sheriff’s office.
My experience there, I went through the ranks at the sheriff’s office. I was a deputy sheriff, I worked patrol, I worked court room security … a hostage negotiator … I was the commander of our Emergency Response Team. I got promoted to sergeant working … in the detective bureau narcotics.
… And got promoted to lieutenant, went to the FBI National Academy, became the chief and the first Black sheriff in Cuyahoga County. When I was a sheriff, I was the only Black sheriff in this entire state, which was shocking to me, because that’s 87 Caucasians and myself. I was kind of surprised to know that when I came to be sheriff. I did almost five years as sheriff and then retired.
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
Hello, I am the retired police chief in Woodmere. So I started out at Cuyahoga Community College. Rose to captain, commander, so I went up through the ranks. [Then], the chief at Woodmere asked me to come in and be his assistant.
And so I wind up being his assistant at Woodmere, and when he left Woodmere, he recommended to the mayor that I become chief. And so for 14 years I was the chief of police for Woodmere, which is a suburb of Cleveland.
I served as a past president of NOBLE [National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives] on the national level. I serve as Sergeant of Arms. I am an MMA judge. And I love law enforcement, but I know there are some problems. I am a resident of Cleveland. I love Cleveland and so between the two, I am now just waiting to get sworn in to be the Community Police Commissioner for the City of Cleveland.
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
Good afternoon. First of all, I will start as I typically always do. I want to thank God from who all our blessings flow.
To know where I came from, to know where I am now, you would know it’s nothing but God.
I came to Shaker via Omaha, Nebraska. … So after high school, I didn’t know what to do with my life, so I joined the Air Force. I did that for six years. Got out, finished my degree. I joined the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office as a volunteer in 1994.
I worked my way into the ranks: sergeant, lieutenant, captain and then the sheriff at the time had two years left on his term. He retired. The county commission appointed my boss as interim sheriff — he made me his No. 2. So I was the chief deputy.
I decided to run for sheriff in 2022, fell 1,425 votes short, but as God will close one door, he opened another. The Shaker Heights Police Department job came open. I put in for that job. I had people from Shaker — they told me, ‘Shaker never had a Black chief before, and they never will.’
You know what? They probably never would if I never even applied. Let me try it. Went through all the first steps, first hurdles, made it through those and got to the next round.
They said, ‘You’re wasting your time. You’ll never get it. You’ll spend all this time, all this effort, and then the mayor is not going to select you.’
So I keep on going. A lot of prayer, a lot of prayer. Made it to the last round. The mayor brought me in, a panel of about 30 people interviewed me. When I left, the mayor stopped the entire process. He said, ‘You know what? You were No. 1 coming in, you’re No. 1 now. Let’s have a conversation.’
He flew to Omaha to talk to me there, and then he came back and offered me the job. Nothing but God.
I’m very passionate about law enforcement. I love what we do. I know we can make a difference in the community. I will be the first to admit, I know we haven’t always been on the right side of history. We haven’t, and I know we have a long way to go when it comes to building that bridge between law enforcement and community.
My goal is one day we stop talking about a bridge because that bridge is built. Only thing we really have to do is cross that bridge. So that’s what we’re going to talk about is how we can help.
Now, I know we won’t have all the answers. But I know there’s some things that we can probably offer and suggest, but when it’s all said and done, it’s what this community wants and it’s what this police department wants.
If the community and the police department are still talking at each other, five years from now we’ll be having the same conversation. We must put our differences aside, have that conversation, have those hard conversations. Speak to each other, not at each other. I tell people all the time when it comes to law enforcement, we do it because we’re paid to do it and it’s our livelihood, but providing the security in our community is everybody’s responsibility … it’s everybody’s responsibility.
Chaplain Michael Murphy Sr.
I wasn’t going to say anything else, but I was asked to introduce myself to people who may not know. I am Michael Murphy Sr. I’m the chaplain of the Akron Police Department.
Question 1:
Gary Estwick
What’s something, if you’re not in law enforcement, something we don’t know or may not even understand, about navigating a system that when it was created wasn’t created for you, wasn’t created for a lot of people here? But now you’re in a position of leadership, and you have the ability to change, to help grow from within. What’s something you all can hope we better understand when we walk out of the room?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne D. Hudson
I can talk all day about this. Helping to better understand and understand when we walk out this room, you’re right, everybody knows the system behind law enforcement is the South. We all know the slave origins, but has the system changed that much these days? We have lots of African Americans in law enforcement.
The way we change the system is from within. We must put our trust in African American leaders and trust that they will look at the system fully, cut out those pieces that are unfair, ensure that we have systems in place to make the overall system fair for everyone.
We know that years ago, we weren’t allowed in this profession, or we were, and we only could police in certain areas. So me, as a law enforcement leader, I look at my department and say, ‘Is there any barriers right now in terms of getting more African Americans in our department?’
And not only that, we have policies and procedures in place, that our policing is fair for everyone.
I like this concept, and I say, ‘I’ve got everyone to feel protected and not policed.” It’s a big difference. Everyone should feel protected. Some people do feel like they’re police and some feel like they’re protectors. So when you leave this room today, ask this hard question of your chief, your city council and your mayor: Are all of our policies and procedures, are they fair for everyone across the board?
Then for the public, be educated on the system of law enforcement. I often talk to a class about what to do when stopped by law enforcement. And one of the questions I ask them is, ‘Has anyone here been stopped by law enforcement who felt they were treated unfairly?’
A lot of people won’t follow up and complain. That is your system. That’s your checks and balance. If you feel that you’ve been mistreated, law enforcement did something wrong, file a formal complaint. That’s the only way someone like me will take a hard look at it and see, ‘Do I have that bad apple, if I need to cut that bad apple out of my department?’
Retired Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
The one thing I would add is, understand that it takes time when we as leaders take that position. I think the community, as well as folks that work within, our colleagues, they think that, ‘OK, you’re the new chief, or you’re the new sheriff, whatever, that you can just go in there and make changes. It’s not that easy. A lot of times it’s impossible, but it can happen, just for the community to know that it takes time.
Retired Woodmere Police Chief Sheila Mason
Also, don’t wait till a situation happens. We need to be forming relationships with our community. Our community needs to know who we are. I know I come from a smaller department and one of the things that I tried to change, if you look back on the department I took over, it was chaotic, but one of the things that I wanted to do was change the concept between law enforcement and our community.
And what I did is, I went out and I started talking to the community to find out what was their concern with our department. But I also talked to our officers, because we have some good police officers out here.
I think I was telling our table [during an earlier discussion] that, you know, it’s only 3% that are bad officers out here. The majority of us get up every morning and say, ‘ We want to serve our department. We are here as a guardian to you all.
We’re not here as your warriors. We’re here as your guardians. And so if we start communication now and form a relationship with you now, when the situation happens, you know us. You know who this officer is. You know who that police chief is. You know you can go and talk to them before the situation happens.
We need you to be our allies, not to be our adversaries.
So if we can start that communication just like we’re doing now, that’s going to help a whole lot. That’s a change. As they say, ‘Be the change maker.’
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
As a chief, you want to be a farmer, you want to plant that seed and then you want to water it as well. That’s the same thing here. You gotta build this relationship. I told my table, it’s haaaard to build relationships in the middle of the storm. It’s hard.
You gotta set that foundation, like Chief Mason said, so when you do have that controversial shooting, when you do have a situation in the community, the community trust, the leadership trust is going to be transparent. Trust that they’re going to do a full investigation fairly and give out the answer. Now the community may not always like the answer, but it will be fair.
Question 2:
Gary Estwick
How did you decide the level of transparency that you need with the community versus making change behind closed doors? How do you decide the balance?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
There’s definitely a balance. There’s certain things that you can’t release when it comes to police and their interaction with the public. There’s certain things based on union contracts, civil service … but to me, finding that balance … is a community advisory group.
I’m a very, very, very big proponent of having a community advisory group. The group that I have in Shaker Heights is the group that I rely on if I have a policy or procedure or something I want to change and I know it’s going to directly affect the public.
Give it to that community advisory group, give us 30 days, go out in the community, talk about it, reconvene and have them give you input on what the community said.
To me, it’s very important. I’m going to give you an example — I didn’t have to have the community advisory for this one.
I had an individual offer to sell me this new gadget. He said, it will stop your pursuits, your foot pursuits. OK, tell me what it looks like.
Well, you take your 40 millimeter cannon gun that we have. The person’s running, you shoot it. It shoots out a net, wraps them up.
I look at that and say, ‘Absolutely not! What does that make you think about? It’s called slavery.’
So a community advisory group can take a look at your new policies and procedures … and give input. Also, when you do have a controversial situation, you don’t have time sometimes to inform the entire public, but you can send communication out to the community advisory group, so that’s gonna be your liaison to the community.
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
One thing with transparency. I try to meet with the community and I try to let them know there are some new things coming down. I may not give them the entire piece, but I give them a summary of it and I say, you know, let me know what you think.
Again, that’s keeping that communication open, just being transparent to the community, and if it’s something that they don’t like, I may not be able to change it all, but what I may be able to do with it is look at it and say, ‘OK, let me look at it a different way, and come back with you in 30 days when we meet again and see if we can work.
I always try to be flexible. We cannot do a hard ball — we have to be flexible. And so when we do something of that nature with the community, again, that’s open communication, that’s showing that we’re trying to work with you, and it’s giving you all buy-in to what we’re talking about and what we would like to do. We may not do everything that you want, but we’re trying to work with you. And so to me, that will be the transparency.
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
I think both chiefs have said it, there’s a balance — some things that we just cannot release because we are still probably investigating it, or it’s dictated from the prosecutor’s office, because further things might come out.
So there is a balance. But when there’s things that you can share, I think it’s a must that you do share that information, not only for the community, but for your department as well.
I was fortunate (or unfortunate) to have a very high-profile case when I first took office, and the family wanted to know everything that was going on, which I understand.
So I could only share with them what could be shared by law and by direction from the prosecutor. And once I did that, it kind of relieved some of their anxiety. I could tell that they still wanted more information, but my best thing to do was to constantly meet with them, because one thing my experience has been, if you are open and transparent with families or the community, they’ll receive it. They might not like it, but they can accept what you tell them.
Question 3:
Gary Estwick
How do new officers build relationships with the community before hitting the streets? And is there a space to do that, even after? What are some ways that you’ve seen that are a success?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
For the Shaker Heights Police Department, we instituted a few years ago kind of a foundation. All of our new officers have to watch either the [13TH] or the Sound of the Police. Mandatory.
After the video, I have a citizen panel. They come in, we have a conversation with the officers, and they talk about their policing experience, what they’ve been through, and what they want to see from the officers. So that’s one.
The second thing is, I’m really, really big into community policing. If you look at my old department and added up the amount of community policing hours — I came from a department of about 225 — I had more hours than every other person in my department added together.
That’s how big I’m into community policing. So for my officers, when I got to Shaker, there was nothing documented if they were doing any kind of community engagement or policing, so I changed it. So now we document it.
If you want a promotion, if you want a special position, if you want to go to certain training classes … let me pull up and see what you’re doing with community policing. That’s how you can connect learning.
And the other thing for me in Shaker, I only have three officers that live in the city, so it’s tough. How do they make that connection? Because they’re so distant because they don’t live here.
I have some officers, they want to police and not protect, and it’s time to change that mindset. And I’ll give you one quick example. I have a very, very strict pursuit policy in Shaker. There’s a certain criteria for me to allow pursuit. So at roll call one time one of the officers said, ‘Chief, let us pursue. You know, he stole the car. We should be able to go after him. Other departments will run until the wheels fall off. Let’s pursue.’
Let’s run it back for a second. Your girlfriend, your fiance is meeting you for lunch and you’re pursuing a stolen car and that car goes through the intersection and plows into your fiancee and now she’s paralyzed from the waist down.
Was it working? ‘Cause you were chasing a stolen car? You put those individuals in a situation where it harms somebody that they love, and you see that mindset change some.
Question 4:
Gary Estwick
Whether it’s training or relationships in the community helping with policing, how do we help new officers connect?
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
My new officers, when I was the police chief, we had two pieces.
I would ask new officers to bring their families to our council meetings. That way the council and the public can meet the officers and their families. And also as a new officer, it drives me, because I believe in, I want a peace of mind from going out meeting the business and meeting the community.
And so by me coming from a small department, I can do that. Sometimes I would only have four new officers, but the council knew who they were. Residents knew who they were, but they also got to meet the families, and I think that was a major piece for them and for the officer and for the community.
And so we were the only ones joining at that time. So down the fire department kind of got a little t-ed. So when they started having new officers, they had to do the same thing.
But the other piece is, once you’re out there, it’s getting out there, meeting your public. Getting out there, riding, not with your windows up, but with your windows down. I’m a bike rider. I’m a walker and a bike rider.
I walk my neighborhood and I ride the bikes. I would change my shift — I’m an 8-to-4. But a lot of times I work 4-to-8, 4-to-9, because I wanted to see people who were getting off from work. I wanted them to see me, and I know some time they’d be like, ‘Oh chief, why are you out riding a bike. You don’t have a car?’
Yeah, I have a car, but in order for me to know and meet you, I needed to be out here. So I’m just saying those are just some of the ways that you can help with the new officers.
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
So there’s two things I did specifically. The new officers, what I did was had them spend time in the jail, and a lot of that was because most, most of the new officers, never spent time in the jail and had a perception of what jail was like. And so I wanted them to experience that, that these are human beings, these are people. These are your people.
And so I wanted them to feel that and experience that. And the other thing I did, because my office is downtown Cleveland, I have my new officers not get in the car, but walk to all the businesses and come back with five business cards.
So they not only get to know the businesses there, but they get to know the new officers. And that was pretty productive. We kind of branched that to even when the folks got promoted.
Question 5:
Gary Estwick
How can we create fair systems of accountability to address unprofessional behavior?
I think first we have to agree what is fair, right? Because it can be completely different from where you stand. OK, so if I may ask that question, what is fair?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
It doesn’t matter what economic class you’re in, the race you’re in, you have policies there, when any group can look at something, a situation, and come to a very similar conclusion — to me, that’s fair.
Again, a lot of our policies and procedures in law enforcement, you have to look at it and see, is it fair for individuals in this neighborhood? Is it fair for you all living in a different neighborhood, so across the board, fair for everyone? Protecting not policed.
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
So for me, I’m gonna come at it from the fair perspective. I think fair is kind of subjective, because fair for me might not be fair for you. One thing I learned when I became a sheriff is this, that every decision I made affected somebody, every decision.
To try to find what’s fair was almost impossible, because somebody’s going to be affected by the decision I made. So you try to make the best decision that’s going to affect the most people. So for me, fair was subjective, but like chief said, you look at it and you analyze it and you go over it and you ask yourself, ‘Is it the right thing to do at the right time for the right reason?’ And then you make the decision from there.
Question 6:
Gary Estwick
Can you give us insight into what it’s like to be a police officer?
When you have an officer who happens to be Black, and you go into a Black neighborhood with someone who’s on the force who may not be Black, do you say, ‘Hey, here’s how you better move in this space.’ And I ask it conversely. If you’re a white police officer and you’re going into a white neighborhood, with your partner who happens to not be white, don’t you say, ‘Hey when you go into Ellet, this is how you boomda, boomta, boom.’ So basically, do you share those experiences? Do police officers have the space to say, ‘Here’s my experience. Here’s how you want to move inside the different neighborhoods?’
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
Great question. When I was younger, one of my first experiences with my father, I saw an officer. And so, as most kids, I waved at the officer – he was a white officer. I waved at him and he did this [indicates gesture].
Of course, I didn’t know how to take that. So that was one of my first experiences. And then, to answer your question, years ago, I was assigned to work in the City of East Cleveland, and I don’t know if you guys are familiar with East Cleveland in Akron. … To be honest, it was cool with me, because I was a sergeant, so I was kind of excited to go to East Cleveland because I felt like, you know, whether it was naive or not, I felt I can go in there and try to make a difference and do a good service.
At the time, the sheriff called me in and he says to me, ‘Hey, Sarge, I’m gonna send you to East Cleveland.’ I’m like, ‘Very cool.’ He said, ‘I want you to take folks.’ I said, ‘Let me take, let me pick my team, because I know the cowboys and I know the ones that’re going to do what I want to do.
So he asks this question. “How do we police East Cleveland? And so I was like, Excuse me? He says, We got majority white officers, so how do you police East Cleveland?’
And I said, treat them with respect. That’s it. When we go into these folks’ homes … that’s their home, respect that home, no matter what you think of it. Respect that home.
If you pull somebody over, respect that person, just like if we were patrolling in the suburbs. You’re not going to go in there and treat them with disrespect. That’s one of the things that when I became a sheriff, that was really high on my list, was respect and being humble, because we serve folks, they don’t serve us.
That shocked me, that question.
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
What I do tell all my officers is … when you pull somebody over and you know, they’re African American, give them a few seconds — you know they’re nervous, don’t go up being robotic.
License. Registration. Insurance. Give them a second. Tell them, ‘I see you’re nervous. This is what’s going to happen. I need to see your license, registration and insurance. This is what you get.
‘I’m going to run back, run your name. If you have no warrants or anything. Tell them if you’re going to write them a ticket, tell them if you’re not. At least that puts them at ease. Give them that half second to calm down some.
But to your point, that’s one of my pet peeves, is when I’m in this community, I’m going to police this way. I’m rough and gruff, but over in this community now, it’s ‘yes, sir, no, sir, yes ma’am.
When I first got hired as police chief, I came up with [what] I call my 13 non-negotiables. I sat down with every one of my officers. And one of those non-negotiables is, you will treat everybody with respect. If you don’t, if I get a chance to terminate you, I’m going to fire you. Simple as that.
Everybody knows there’s no sexual jokes, there’s no racial jokes. You will treat everybody with respect.
(Applause.)
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
When I became sheriff, one of the things I did was to create a Citizens’ Academy. We’ve never had a Citizens Academy at the sheriff’s office, and so at the Citizens’ Academy, I would always be there and answer questions and take whatever.
So this councilman asked me, ‘Why did you want to start this Citizens’ Academy?’ I said, ‘For the Sheriff’s Office, we have the luxury and ability to be on the West Side of Cleveland, and then 20 minutes, 25 minutes beyond the East Side — there are two different communities.
So the East Side you got the urban East Cleveland, and the West Side you got the affluent. I wanted them to know that my officers have to be able to police whatever side of the county you’re on the same way.
If you’re dealing with a doctor or you’re dealing with this drug dealer or whatever the situation is, you’re out there working the same way … with respect. But then you’re going to be sitting in my office, because at the end of the day our phones are ringing if you don’t, and then to try to deal with that individual, it’s kind of hard to hold these folks accountable, because you have to deal with unions … all type of things. You do what you have to do.
But at the end of the day, that community is talking to me. So if I can do anything, if I can’t do anything but hold you accountable in my office to make you nervous and whatever, that’s what I’m doing.
(Applause.)
Question 7:
Gary Estwick
Assuming funding is not an issue, could decentralizing departments and creating many stations help improve community policing? Why?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
Yes, if you have different new stations around different communities where you have all your resources in that one central point. The reason why I think that would help is because, especially if the commanders for those stations are very involved with the community, because then they’re inviting the community into the station.
You know who your commander is. You know who the officers are. You know who the detectives are, they’re all the same individuals. But again, you gotta have a commander who is really into community policing, community engagement, and makes their officers available to the community.
So I think it’s very beneficial to have it decentralized with substations around the city,
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
That department, that unit, would have to be involved with the community. They have to participate in community meetings, what’s called a block watch. But they have to be involved within the community. They just cannot sit in this station, right? So if you have to put a policy out there, and you have to have the right people that you’re going to assign to those stations, so that you know that those parties will be in line, that they will be a participant, and that they are bringing me to the community.
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
I’m willing to bet different parts of Akron have different law enforcement issues or criminal justice issues. There’s a concept that I like called Community Directed Policing.
What you may need in one part of Akron is not needed in another part of Akron. So if you had decentralized, you had new substations, then that commander can meet with the community, find out what they want to do.
The problem we had as law enforcement for years is we would tell the community what we’re going to do to you. We would tell you what type of policing strategy we’re going to give you. We didn’t ask for your input. Well, the community’s not going for that … they want input.
So with Community Directed Policing, you sit down with community neighborhood associations. You find out, ‘What are the issues? What can you do as a community group? And what can we do?’
You write everything out, we both sign off on it. So maybe when we do what we say we’re going to do and somebody complains, go see your neighborhood association, because we’re all in agreement: ‘This is what we want done.’
Question 8:
Gary Estwick
How can we work toward pairing young officers with veteran officers? Is there more success with that?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
Just my personal opinion, some of our more senior officers are jaded and you don’t want to pair them with a brand new officer.
What you want to do is get rid of your jaded ones, if you can. But you gotta keep those younger ones enthused, energized. Gotta keep them connected … you don’t want them paired up with someone who’s been on 20 years and have that axe to grind, because they’ve seen this, that and the other in the community. And their policing style 20 years ago is nowhere where we are today. Wholly different.
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
And I know we just spoke about this at our table. One of the things that I am concerned about is the police academy. Sometimes at the police academy, you have a veteran officer that wants to talk about the good old days, and now you’ve got your new officers coming in, and they are basically getting it in their head about the good old days.
The things that they used to do, you can’t do it any more. So one of the things that I want to see is a change in the police academy where you don’t have all veteran officers teaching our young cadets coming in. Give them the fresh young ideals of things that are happening, let them know how the community operates.
I think one thing that we were talking about over there: in the Black community, we talk with our hands and with our heat. Don’t mean that we’re ready to jump on you. That’s just the way we talk.
When I get mad, I get loud, don’t mean I’m getting ready to fight, but those are the things that need to be taught in our academy, how to deal with the various cultures that we have in our community. So if a veteran officer is only talking about what was, the new officer will never know how it could be.
So for me again, we have some good veteran officers, but very few. A lot of them are negative. And I will give an example. We had a cadet, and he was going through his FTO. And FTO is a very important part for law enforcement. You gotta have the right person teaching FTO. That’s your new officers coming in.
Gary Estwick
Can you explain what FTO is?
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
Field training officer.
So not realizing that we had assigned one of our new cadets with one of our jaded officers. Usually it’s 90 days you go through with your field training officer, and you go through three different stages of officers.
For some reason, this officer took on all the negative behavior of that field training officer, the FTO. We fired him. We fired that new guy because he was jaded to think the way that officer was, the field training officer.
Finally, we got rid of him too, but we lost a good officer because he took on those bad traits of that veteran officer.
Question 9:
Gary Estwick
Historically, unions have played a strong role in law enforcement, right? How do you manage relationships with these unions, especially as you’re implementing reforms?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
For me, I stress my relationship with union leadership. At the point I first got into the department, I let them know that I’ve read through the union contract, I’ve read the policy and procedures and that I would never violate their contract, but at the same time, I am going to hold the officers accountable for their actions and inactions.
The unions can be a road block to certain things, but as I said, I have 13 non-negotiables and the union leadership got that as well.
I know there’s a lot of hurdles you gotta jump through to fire an officer. And what I told my new leadership is, if it’s a fireable offense and it’s gross enough, then I will terminate him and I’ll fight you guys in court.
Sometimes you gotta do that. You gotta send a message out there that there’s certain offenses that individuals can make and they need the ultimate punishment in return.
Let the union know that I’m going to respect their rights in the contract, but this department, we’re moving the ship into a different direction, and that’s more towards community policing.
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
My experience with the union has been, when I was a sergeant, I was in the union directly.
When I became a sheriff, I was on the other side. I thought I had a good working relationship with the union until you had to terminate somebody, which is, you know, it is what it is.
But I think for me, my experience has been, dealing with the union is OK, it’s the arbitrators that become the biggest hurdle. You might say, this is a fireable offense and you’re well within your rights to get rid of this person. But then the arbitrator comes and rules in favor of the officer because of past practice.
You know, the past administration won’t let this go, so that has nothing to do with me, but it does.
Until you come in as the new chief or sheriff or whatever, and then you have to change the whole policy so it says, ‘OK, this is how we’re moving forward under me,’ So you want to get rid of that past practice.
I had a situation with a white officer. We had a Black young man who was about 17 years old in juvenile court, and he was sitting in court, waiting on the judge. He was handcuffed, and his mom was there, and his mom was asking how he’s doing.
The deputy tells them, ‘This is not a visit. Quit talking. Quit talking.’
The kid goes, ‘Hey, that’s my mom.’ So the deputy takes him in the back, and I saw video, no audio, and the kid is handcuffed, and he’s choking the kid and slaps him three times in the face, and it’s this big, big scene, and deputies come in and break it all up.
So he has to do a report. So I get the report. His report says that he tried to pat the kid on the shoulder to sit down, and his hands slipped. I said, ‘Three times?’
So his report was false, so I could terminate him on that. I had to go back and forth with the administration about that and end up firing the guy. The arbitrator comes in, and he brings the guy back.
Now the community is looking at me like, ‘Why’d you bring that guy back?’ I didn’t bring him back. I let him go.
What I had to do was I had to try to find a way to make the arbitrator, not necessarily the bad guy, accountable. Because how this works, for the folks that don’t know, it’s almost like jury duty. The union says, ‘OK, here’s a list of arbitrators.’ And then the administration goes, ‘This is our list of arbitrators,’ and you get to pick which one.
Of course, I’m not going to pick an arbitrator who rules in their favor all the time, and they’re not going to pick an arbitrator that rules in my favor all the time, so we’re going to try to split it down the middle.
This arbitrator, he was pretty decent, but this ruling, he writes that I was well within my rights to let this guy go, but he’s going to recommend that I bring him back. So I told everybody, don’t use this guy, because this is how he rules. So that’s one of the things, one of the fights we have to do as administrators with the union.
Question 10:
Gary Estwick
What are the touch points, whether it’s quarterly, monthly, weekly, daily. What are the touch points, in terms of teaching or reminding, to make sure officers are communicating and listening to the people they serve. What do those touch points look like?
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
It’s training like they were talking about earlier. When I came up, I was taught in the academy the “ATM.” So I’m asking you to do something [the “A”], then I’m going to tell you to do something [the “T”] and then I’m going to make you do something [the “M”].
But we don’t police like that. You can’t police like that, and I’m glad we don’t do police like that.
I’m not aggressive by nature, but I was getting aggressive, and I didn’t know why I was getting aggressive. But now I know why.
It depends on who that officer is and whatever your experience has been in the community, because that’s what really got me out of my aggressiveness is dealing with folks. Because, you know, not everybody needs that type of aggressiveness, so I had to learn that.
Unfortunately, I learned it from an inmate … he was like, ‘You don’t need to be like that, treat folks with respect.’ So I learned it, and I’m glad I learned it early in my career.
Question 11:
Gary Estwick
I think what you just said is not something the community is accustomed to hearing from someone in law enforcement. ‘This is how I used to police. I see how I could have done it better, or I see how I’d do it differently now.’ If you agree with that, that’s not something we hear often, why do you think we don’t hear that often?
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
First off, I do agree with that statement, and I think if you spoke with officers individually, you might hear it more, but probably the reason why you don’t hear is because people are learning there are other ways, and so they just try to do better. If you do better, you do better.
Like, for me, I just knew that it wasn’t me by nature. I ain’t no tough guy, but don’t get it twisted, but I wasn’t aggressive. That’s not in my nature to be aggressive, and I just wasn’t feeling right. And so I think that’s why I was more receptive to receive that instruction.
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
Can I just tell a little story on my “maturity.” When I was in patrol, our chief put me with a field training officer, Commander Reynolds. Commander Reynolds was a no-nonsense commander, and he was my FTO, and he would fight at the drop of a hat.
So I begin to fight at the drop of a hat. You say stuff to me, I’ll be ready to fight.
So my chief said, you’re getting too aggressive. I’m going to put you with Sergeant Sewell. Sergeant Sewell is the nice calm guy. He’s the, ‘Why did you do this? Sir, let me help you.’
I had to learn the balance of the two, and so I became and I understand now, I understand my ways. I understand that as I matured and as I learned, that I had to calm down and that everything wasn’t as serious.
And I had to understand that I am him or I am her. And so when I started looking at them that way, it made me change. How would I want that officer to approach me when I walk up on it?
So I had to look at it in a different light. So what I tried to tell my officers is always think about if that was your family member that you were approaching. So I always try to make them understand, that could be you or your family.
And the other thing was. … When we’re in these clothes right here, you all do not know that we’re in law enforcement. John Doe, citizen, and that’s just what we are.
But when the police come up on us and they stop us, they don’t know we’re the police. They think we’re John Doe citizen, until they see the badge, or I say, ‘What did I do wrong? Tell me, what did I do wrong? I need you to explain to me why you’re stopping me.’
Well, now they’re thinking, ‘Why is she asking all these questions?’ And I will say, ‘I need to speak to one of your supervisors,’ especially if I haven’t done anything wrong.
Those things I had to learn and understand when I’m out here, policing our community. Police our family, I’m serving my community, and see those words we gotta take out of our training.
We’re not policing you all. We’re serving you all. We are your protectors.
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
Training is definitely critical. I always say this, though, ‘We train the most where we use the least.’ We’re good at training on guns and tactics and all that. But we don’t train a lot on de-escalation skills, communication skills. We use that 99% of the time. Only that small percent are in pulling guns or using tactics. The other thing too is, if you really want to know what your law enforcement is insecure about, look at the budget.
Your budget will tell you the blueprint. Do they care about community engagement? Do they care about community service? Do they care about mental health, having co-responders? Look at their budget, if all you see is guns, bullets and all that, you know what they care about.
Question 12:
Gary Estwick
What qualitative and quantitative legislative or policy changes have you been able to implement on your watch? If you have any, give some specific examples of legislative and policy charges.
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
One policy that’s been changing recently is the open carry law. It was done to make people feel like they’d be more safe. That’s not true, especially if you don’t know the laws that surround you being able to carry that firearm in a car, if you’re drinking. That’s how they think the marijuana law’s been changed. ‘It’s legal now.’ No, you still can’t do it while you’re driving.
And who’s getting collared up with that? Our kids, our kids are getting collared up with that because they didn’t read the law.
So those two laws here in Ohio I thought were just absolutely ridiculous.
When they tell us that the teen brain isn’t fully formed until 24. So I got a handgun on my side right now, it’s a .45. I’m accurate about 25-30 yards. You gotta be 21 to buy a handgun, but you only have to be 18 to buy an AR-15 that can shoot 100, 300 yards and do a lot more damage.
Make that make sense. It makes no sense.
Question 13:
Gary Estwick
Present conversation notwithstanding, how can we reform police departments if we never acknowledge what’s going on?
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
I agree, 100% … you cannot talk about the harm that’s done without having those conversations. And I truly hope that the department shows up and are open and honest and have those conversations and try to start healing those wounds for what’s going on here. If it’s just the community and law enforcement isn’t there, it’s a one-sided conversation. Both have to be at the table. I mean, both have to be open and honest.
You have to have those conversations. It’s going to be ugly, it’s going to be messy, but change is messy. It is ugly, but the other side is worth it.
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
I totally agree with that, too. We would always have town hall meetings back in Cleveland, especially around when I was sheriff around 2015, 2016 — we had the Eric Garner murder. So we had a lot of outside agitators coming into town trying to disrupt stuff, which, I mean, I get it.
But we were successful because we always had town hall meetings.
I think it’s necessary, but from my experience, I think what would also serve is to have the unions there, as well as the community and administration. Have union representatives there too, because they got a piece of this too. They’re representing the officers. We don’t really see you guys on a day-to-day basis, but those frontline folks, they do. So they got, they gotta fight this game too. So I think adding a union in those conversations and those town halls and those community meetings would be beneficial.
Question 14:
Gary Estwick
How do we establish more resources to address mental health and economic deficiencies, i.e.housing, food, etc., etc.?
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
We had a program called “Ease at Work,” because back in the day, when I was coming up, if the officer wanted to get some help, that was kind of taboo. That was real taboo.
If he did, you were doing it on the low because he didn’t want nobody to know about it.
But now it’s kind of different, which is a good thing, because Ease at Work and you kind of encourage somebody to go get some help. Then now they also have officer wellness for officers, whether it’s a SRO or you’re just having a bad day or getting a divorce, whatever the case may be.
If you want to know about nutrition. If you want to know about whatever, officer wellness programs are out there for officers now.
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
When I was the chief, I wanted my officers to know that when they came to me with something confidential, what they did was confidential.
Some officers I did have to send and get mental checks, but nobody in the department knew that this is something that they were doing. We had a program through Cleveland Clinic called “Flagstaff.”
They could go six times where their insurance picked it up, but they would go while they were at work, and so I would make it where I knew they were going.
So what I did is I made it as a special assignment. Supervisors didn’t know what they were doing, but I knew where they were going. So when they made the schedule and the time, they set it up with me.
The officers have to feel confident that their supervision is going to hold their information totally within confidentiality, so that they can come to you and say, ‘Hey, I’m having a problem.’
And we do have problems. I had some … divorces, and one guy got caught cheating, but he felt confident enough to come to me and talk to me about it. I knew his head wasn’t in the right space. So I said, ‘You have to go and get some mental help.’ And so he went.
We have to, you know, show that empathy to our guys as well as to our residents, and go back to the school piece. I was the school resource officer back in the day, but I was in patrol, and I worked at Shaw High School, which is part of the East Cleveland school system and it was kind of rough. But the one thing that, as the officer said, the students trust me enough.
There was this one family called the Davenport family. I think every grade, every school, there was two or three of them in each school system. But I had established myself with them, well with the one, he was in the 10th grade. By the time he graduated from Shaw High School, he invited me to his graduation.
That’s because I sat and I listened to him. We had to establish ourselves, but once we established our situation, we became friends. He felt that I was a person that he could come and talk to, and as a school resource person, that’s what you want. You want that student, that kid, to come and talk to you about their situation and the situations that are going on in school.
Akron Police Chaplain Michael Murphy Sr.
One question asked, ‘How can you bring a Citizens’ Academy to the community?’
Actually held one for clergy and community leaders, I think that was maybe about four or five months ago, and it really wasn’t that well attended, and so we’re willing to do that again. I’ll arrange something with [Akron Police Chief Brian] Harding and we can do that again.
The other question was, was there any specialized developmental disability training similar to CIT. My wife Anita is over there — she’s on the Autism Board of Summit County. And, you know, I had an idea that came up to get stickers, and then even Chief Harding gave me another idea, so that people that have autism, that may …, you know, respond properly to situations, that the officer will be able to identify that someone in that car has that sticker on a car or on the door of their home.
So that’s something we’re still kind of working toward, and the Autism Society is willing to provide training for officers here in Akron.
How can you connect more, be more accessible to the general community with events like this one?
Prevail Church is a very small church here — we definitely can help. We need some help with resources, get it out more on media and have a bigger venue to even host more people, we’re more than willing to do this.
Question 15:
Gary Estwick
As trailblazers, leaders in the space you work in, what are some of the bigger challenges you faced in transitioning to the new roles? And to stay, not just to survive, but to thrive. Was it a bigger challenge to get there than to stay there and implement change?
Retired Woodmere Chief Sheila Mason
I was the third in the state of Ohio, as in a Black female in this role.Two other ladies … one from East Cleveland made chief before, so I had somewhat of a mentor going into that.
But I was blessed because I came up through the ranks, and so I kind of understood some of the guys that I worked with, and I knew the ones that I needed to deal with. When I went from being a patrolman to a commander, I tried to talk to everybody.
Again, going back to communications, communications and transparency. And so because they knew how I was and how I operate, it was more receptive to me coming up the ranks. So when I became a chief, for two years, I worked in that department so the guys knew who I was. They knew what my views were, how I operated.
Actually, I met the chief [referring to Hudson] here at one of my trainings we went to. We went there for a training for court to learn how to handle our courts. We all got municipalities, so we needed to understand security. Everything that my officers went through training coming in, I went through training with them.
I wanted them to know that, because I’m the chief does not mean that I’m just going to stand back and watch what you do. I want to be a part of what you do. I met when I first came in, I had a little luncheon, and I had a luncheon for the officers and their families. I wanted to meet them, and I wanted to meet their families.
In order to do this transition and do it right, I had to get their by in. Then I went out and I met with the community. I had a town hall meeting with the mayor to introduce myself and let them know that I want to come out and I want to talk to you all. I want to talk to you in your homes, not in this place. So I found out where each person lived. They came to the meeting and I did.
I went to their house, we sat and we had coffee, tea or whatever it is they were offering. Then I met with the business to do my transition into this chief’s position and also met with the media, because I needed the media to understand what I was about. I don’t want you coming at me when something’s wrong. I want you to know me before situations happen.
We had a situation in Woodmere. It never really hit the media. It was a bad situation, but because we had established a relationship and we did the transparency — we met with them, and we talked to them, and we let them know what we were going to do, it really did not blow up the way everybody thought it was going to blow up.
Those were my transitions into this position, and I also met with the union. I went to lunch with the union, and I told them, ‘You know, I used to be you, I understand you. It’s not going to be all a win-win situation. We’re going to have some wins and we’re going to have some losses, but I’m willing to work with you, and I need you to work with me.’
And when I brought in the new policies and procedures, we sat down and we talked about it. I went to a class. I wanted to know exactly how to do the policy and procedure manual. And if anybody, if you are looking for a good one, I’m gonna tell you. I’m not trying to sell Lexipol, but Lexipol is a really good policy and procedure … because when you put those policies and procedures together, the officers have to take a test to show that they understand the policy and procedure that you just implemented.
Shaker Heights Police Chief Wayne Hudson
I came from Omaha, Nebraska — red state, red city, red county. Ostracized since day one on that department, the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office.
Some officers didn’t want to talk to me. Some officers didn’t want to deal with me … but I took it as a challenge.
I beat them on every exam that I could, to the point where now they come to me for training, equipment, things of that nature. God has a way.
For me now, the one thing the city said they wished they could have done a little different was prepare the department for a Black chief. Because you gotta move a little different, because a lot of eyes are on a Black chief.
We don’t get the same breaks, but we get all the challenges and more, but we don’t get the same breaks.
I don’t know if you heard about ‘doggy gate?’ I had a doggy gate up there where I had people from other countries calling me up, calling me out by name, all because I had an officer who wanted his dog, he wanted to leave, but didn’t want to follow the state law, city ordinance.
So they had PETA and everybody else have to be on this dog, which I could not give them because of state law.
But again, as a Black chief, there’s a bunch of challenges out there. So people ask me, ‘So why do I weigh in on things now? Because sometimes, I’m unpolitic about certain things. I got a full pension, OK?
I told the mayor of Shaker that I’ll go on being your chief as long as you and I can see eye to eye on how we’re doing things in the community. Once we don’t, I got a full pension.
I don’t be the chief anywhere else. I’m doing this chief thing one time. And as far as being a chief, some of the best advice that I got from NOBLE, and I tell you, right now, I wouldn’t be a chief right now if it wasn’t for NOBLE [the National Organization of Black Law Enforement]. If you want to be a good chief, there’s your community, your hiring authority and your staff. A good chief will get two of those.
A great chief will get all three. I strive to get all three. The other thing is, I know we have a bunch of 100 Black Men in here. 100 Black Men model. What they see is what they’ll be.
If they don’t see us in these positions, if they don’t see us helping our community, if they don’t see us doing things that we should be doing, who are they seeing and what will they be?
This is Black History Month. We are a very resilient people. The problems here in Akron, they can be overcome. We’ve overcome a lot more than this, a lot more.
Let’s sit down, have those hard conversations. Invite NOBLE back. I know we’ll be glad to come back. Let’s get this going. Let’s make this be the destination city. Let’s turn it around. Thank you very much.
Former Cuyahoga County Sheriff Cliff Pinkney
I’m going to conclude by first thanking you all for the gift of your time today. I speak for the panel. We appreciate it, and thank you for your questions and the way you conducted yourself.
Y’all did a tremendous job. So I appreciate that.
[Applause]
We family, right? OK, so I can speak.
For me, the transition was, it is what it is. I’m coming so, ain’t nothin’ you can do about it in the department wise. That wasn’t really a challenge necessarily for me, because I came from within, so I came up through the ranks. I wasn’t really too worried about that.
The challenges I received was more from outside my agency, and I’m speaking toward like the courts and the other cities, we had 59 municipalities in my county. Those are the challenges, because being the first Black Sheriff, like I said when I first became the sheriff, I was the only Black sheriff in the entire state.
That kind of set me back on my heels, and to be again, 100% honest, since we family, I didn’t really mean that to be the Black sheriff piece. I wanted to be identified and recognized as the sheriff, because my naivete was thinking that they were going to always put this label.
‘You weren’t sheriff, you were the Black sheriff,’ like it was a difference.
I didn’t really lean into it. And I kind of regret that.
I really do kind of regret that to this day, because at the time, I was CYO, AAU basketball coach. I do professional amateur boxing to this day, and so I had a lot of young athletes around me.
They knew, but I think I could have done a lot better in representing being a Black sheriff. So I kind of missed the mark on that.
One of the things that kept me grounded was, I got my chief deputy that’s here with me today, George … that’s my man right there. So George, he’d keep me grounded. So whenever I would get into my bag, he would — George has a way when I know I’m sideways, he’ll just look at me, like, you know, like a big brother or something, like, you should not do that.
He didn’t have to say nothing. I was like, OK, alright, I got you. I got you. So he kept me grounded. He kept me in line.
And when I would deal with the folks that didn’t accept me as a sheriff, a lot of times, I would get him beforehand or have him go with me, because they looked past my qualifications.
I’m sure y’all had the same thing. ‘Well, you only got the job because the timing was right.’ It’s like a political thing. And that kind of didn’t sit right with me. I always felt like I had to prove something.
And when I first became the sheriff, I was acting like what I thought a sheriff was supposed to act like. You know, you see TV, and then I had, I had … y’all are laughing. I had, I want to say, role models, but I had examples of what sheriffs were. And I’m like, ‘Oh, I like the way he wears his uniform. I liked the way he did this. So I was trying to fit in.
And then about six months in, I’m like, ‘This is crazy, like, I’m the sheriff, right? It ain’t the other way around.’
I had to really sit in to the realization that you’re the sheriff … and you scare yourself that way. You got here being you, being sheriff.
And so that’s how I ended up my career, just being.
